Info-Mac 1992 August/info-mac-1992.iso/Report/SE30 Monitor Options.txt

Internet Message Format | 1992-08-28 | 17KB

From: [e-mail] ( John Thoo )
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 21:23:59 PST
Subject: SE/30 and color monitor: report


I recently posted the following questions on IMD:
>I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page
>monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in
>getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid?
>What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale
>monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be,
>well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors?
>
>Are there any accelerator/8-bit combo cards for an SE/30 out there?
>Or will I have to choose between speeding up my Mac or looking at
>a color screen?


I received quite a few responses to my queries (a couple of people
actually responded *twice*), and I'd like to thank each and everyone who
responded, especially:
alex judkins <[e-mail]>;
David Herren <@mitvma.mit.edu:[e-mail]>;
Greg Alton <[e-mail]>;
Derek Fong <[e-mail]>;
Andy Francke <[e-mail]>;
Wade Williams <[e-mail]>;
unsigned <@BUACCA.BU.EDU:[e-mail]>.

(I hope I didn't mix up anyone's name and e-mail address  :-)


SUMMARY OF RESPONSES:
Quite simply, almost everyone who responded to my query said that
using a color monitor DOES NOT slow down an SE/30; everyone said
to "go for the color"! The RasterOps board was recommended most
often, each time with the caveat that it is quite expensive; no
particular monitor was recommended a notable number of times.
Unfortunately, no one had any specific info re the availability of an
accelerator/8-bit combo card for the SE/30, but in light of the fact
that using a color monitor doesn't slow down the SE/30 appreciably, I
guess that not learning about such a card doesn't really matter.


The following is a compilation of all the responses I received, sans their
e-mail headers. I suspect that the info-mac moderators will snip off this
section and archive it in /info-mac/report.

Again, thanks to all who took the time to respond to my query.
I hope that this summary will prove useful to someone.

--John.


===============================cut here==================================
I saw your question on info-mac.  I'll tell you about my particular
experience, with the standard disclaimers.

I have an SE/30 with a RasterOps 264 (24bit color) board and the Apple
13" monitor.  The RO board is not accelerated.  Regarding speed: I find
that the SE/30 with color is noticebly faster than a IIcx or IIsi,
depending on the particular memory config. on the latter machine.

I believe it is so fast because the external display boards are designed
for the SE/30's PDS slot, which I understand is significantly faster than
the NuBus.

Take home message: Definitely buy the external video card for the SE/30.
There are several on the market and you wont be disappointed.  The machine
will be quite fast, and having the 9" BW internal screen is an added
advantage.  Also, if you find yourself doing some boring application that
doesn't require color and needs to run really fast, you can just switch
down to 1bit depth on the external display and the whole system is just as
fast as the normal SE/30.

p.s. the SE/30 is, in my opinion, the best machine in the Mac line that
apple will ever make.  After adding color last year I think I am set for
the next few years.
*******

>I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page
>monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in
>getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid?
>What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale
>monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be,
>well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors?

I use the Apple 13" color monitor with a Micron card in my SE/30 and
love it. Most applications don't suffer, speedwise, and on those rare
occasions when there is a significant speed impact (like when I'm using
Word with a 256 point TrueType font, which slows down scrolling
considerably) I just use "PixelFlipper" to drop down to 1-bit color.

>Are there any accelerator/8-bit combo cards for an SE/30 out there?
>Or will I have to choose between speeding up my Mac or looking at
>a color screen?

This I don't know, but I know that some types of cards do provide a slot
so that you aren't left without one.
*******

I am using the RasterOps 264 card for the SE/30 which is a 24 bit card. I also
use a RasterOps MediaTime card on my IIx, also a 24bit color card. while the
SE/30 and the IIx are basically the same box, the SE/30-RasterOps card is still
faster when running in 256 colors or in millions of colors since there is no
slow nubus. I would say go for any color card for the SE/30 and the RasterOps
is nice, though pricey.
*******

I think the most relevant question is "how slow is your se/30 now?"  I've
found with an LC that only programs that run real slow or use graphics
tons are that much slower at 8-bit.  Using a depth-switcher (I think depth
gauge is the best, unless it's depth charge) makes this process easy and
it speeds things up.  Games are the only things that have been real
significant for me, with sound also being a factor.

I'd suggest you go for the colour - the difference is amazing.  Cost is a
factor, but going for something with at least the option for later is a
real good idea.

Just an opinion.
*******

To quickly answer your question: NO, having colro does not slow down your SE/30
cpu performance.  I don't know where this myth came from, but they are certainly
untrue from my experience.

In any case, let me attach a summary I made up of my experiences in choosing
a color setup last November.  Hopefully, this will give you another option
in the color setup for the SE/30.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

(this is going to be long, but hopefully informative)

Fellow netters!

Many people have posted inquiries about color solutions on the
SE/30, and I have sent many individual responses to people.  I
have decided that it would be in the best interest of the net for
me to post a summary of what I decided on:

The Sony 1304 and the Lapis Colorserver PDS30-17.

Before I begin, I would like to thank all of the people who helped
me make my decision last November, especially Meric Ozcan who
introduced me to the Lapis card.  Also, all of these opinions are
wholly my own; Stanford doesn't pay me enough to have rights to my
opinions.  In the same spirit, I have no association with Sony and
Lapis except being a satisfied customer.

PRICE:
This is what I paid, your mileage may vary:
$579 Sony 1304 monitor
$400 Lapis Colorserver PDS30-17 with an academic discount
(if I goof and say 14 instead of 17 later in this posting, please
excuse me.  I mean the same thing.  Lapis recently changed the
name of the card since it now supports the  16"/17"
monitors...more on that later)

Currently, I have seen the Sony for as low as $568 (Fry's
Electronics in the SF Bay area) and the Lapis for $379 at MacLand
(They advertise in MacWorld, but I don't know how reputable they
are...)

THE SONY 1304
I think there has been a lot said about this monitor so I will
keep my comments to the minimum.  I think the Sony has a good
picture and is a very nice combination with the Lapis card since
it can be used at three different resolutions.  I would have
to agree that the blacks aren't as "sharp" as those on the Apple
RGB , but I think this  is due to the built-in anti-glare filter
which I think is a nice feature.  The dot pitch is .25 mm like the
Apple RGB, and has the Trinitron tube.  For me, I chose it over
the Apple because of: price, multi-synching ability of the Sony,
1" greater diagonal image, built-in tilt and swivel stand.)  I
think the picture is very close the quality of the Apple's and
this again, is probably due to the anti-glare filter.

THE LAPIS COLORSERVER PDS30/17
I chose this card over the Micron Xceed 30 at the very last moment
after talking to Meric and seeing his setup (also with a Sony
1304).  The advantages of this card over the Micron is that it can
run in different modes (resolutions) and was available for
purchase immediately (the Micron was backorder about 8 weeks when
I was ordering in November...does anyone know what it is now?).  I
think the advantages of the Micron are its price ($279 from many
mail order houses) and it ranks about 7% faster than the Lapis
according to the Speedometer 3.05 program...whether this is
a good indication of video performance, I will let you
judge...oh,the overall score for the Lapis was 1.45 running System
7 on my SE/30 versus the 1.55 stated for an SE/30 with the Micron
Xceed card.

I think the major motivation for buying the Lapis card is its
versatility.  Not only can it be used with a wide variety of
monitors, but also with in a number of modes, as is the case with
my Sony.

The setup works in that the Lapis card has a programmable ROMwhich
gets written too each time the machine is restarted.  (another
small drawback: because the ROM must be written to by a INIT, the
external monitor cannot serve as the "startup screen" (ie, Welcome
to Macintosh, smiley mac, and color startup screen).  The way
one changes modes is that they go the monitors cdev which is
"piggybacked" by the Colorserver INIT/control panel.

When one clicks on the options button, they can choose from the
following:

Apple RGB (640x480)
Apple Portrait (640x872)
VGA (640x480) at 60,68,77, and 86 hz
SVGA (800x600) at 56,62,70 hz
16/17" monitor (832x624)

I have found that all VGA and SVGA modes work on my monitor, so I
just choose  the highest refresh rates.  These modes allow the
card to work with a number of monitors from the IBM world.
One thing I would like to point out is that there is
no 72 hz SVGA mode.  If I understand correctly, VESA (some video
standard group) has agreed that Super VGA (800x600) is supposed to
be at 72 hz.  Why Lapis does not give this as an option, I don't
know.  I have written them to check into this, so there might be a
future software update to allow this refresh rate as an option.
The reasonI mention this is that, some SVGA monitors only synch at
72 hz, and therefore, won't work with the Lapis card at this time.

In any case, the Sony 1304 does just fine with these rates sinceit
can vertically synch from 50 hz up to 87 hz.

Also, after getting a new EPROM from them (sent absolutely
free),my Sony also can be fooled into thinking that it is a
16"/17" monitor (like the E Machine monitors and the New Apple
monitor); hence, I can also run in 832x624 mode.  I don't know
what the synch rate on this one is, but on the Sony, it works, and
there is not flicker whatsoever.

Some of you might be wondering what kind of dot density is
achieved at these modes, so here they are from my experience with
the Sony 1304:

640x480 at 64 dpi
800x600 at 78 dpi
832x624 at 85 dpi

None of these are WYSIWYG resolutions, but 72 dpi can be achieved
by playing with the potentiometers on the side of the Sony (change
vertical and horizontal image size and position) to achieve this
in 640x480 mode.

SETTING IT UP:
    Lapis does a nice job at making connection with different
monitors easy.  The card comes with two "pin-out cables" (ie,
cables that connect to the card and are passed out the back of the
SE/30): one for the Apple type connector, and one for VGA type
connectors.  So, I chose the VGA one, and it hooks directly to the
Cable that came with the 1304...no adaptors necessary!
Installation was simple, and the set-up in the manual was very
clear.  It doesn't require any removal of the mother
board or anything.  Just plug it in, connect the cable, bunch out
the plastic on the back of your SE/30, secure the card with the
provided plastic rivets, and your are
done within 15 minutes.

TECHNICAL SUPPORT:
    This is a smaller company than SuperMac or Rasterops, but the
guy I have dealt with, Jeff Marks, is a wonderful help.  The first
card they sent me didn't seem to work in 2-bit (4 color mode).  I
called him, and he sent me a new card.  Yes, I didn't have to
return the "almost-working" card until I had received the new one.
Nice service.  The new one worked fine.
    As mentioned above, I also got a new EPROM from him.  I had
heard that the card was capable of supporting 16/17" monitors. and
thought that I might be able to drive the Sony in the 832x624
mode.  Well, I called him, and he said that he would
send me the latest software, and that my EPROM might need
replacing.  Well, he was right, and sent me the EPROM, free of
charge.

SYSTEM 7 COMPATIBLE
    The card is fully system 7 compatible and the latest driver
is 32-bit clean (version 3.0: again, Jeff Marks gladly sent me
this for free).  I have run it with many applications and it has
worked flawlessly.  As I mentioned before, the only bummer
is not making the external the "startup screen," but that is worth
the abilities of the programmable ROM.

I think the only complain I had with Lapis is that it took them a
few days to ship my card out once my order was filled.  I think
this is due to them being a small company with a not very
sophisticated shipping department.  Then again, if you order from
MacLand, you might encounter something different.

Okay, I guess that is about it.  I know this was long, but
hopefully it will be of use to some of you.  I think the Lapis
card and Sony 1304 make a very nice color setup on
an SE/30 and recommend it highly.

If something is unclear in my discussion, or there are any
individual questions, feel free to send me email.

----Derek Fong
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
*******

I helped my roommate upgrade his SE/30 with a Micron XCEED 8-bit color card
last semester, and he was worried about the same thing: speed. The color card
is generally somewhat faster in displaying black and white than the stock
SE/30, and is much faster than a IIsi at displaying color. I'd rank its color
performance about neck and neck with a IIci, in fact. In some special cases,
it's faster than 1-bit, because the Mac doesn't have to dither color images to
black and white. In short: this card is terrific, and I won't hesitate in
recommending it to anyone, if they have the money to spend on color. We bought
the card for about 300, and a Mirror/Goldstar monitor for 420 or so. The Mirror
isn't as bright as the Apple 13" or equivalent Trinitron types, but it still
looks great.
*******

Glad to be of help.  Good luck with your search for color.  All I can say is
that when it comes to the very end when you end up getting it, you are going
to LOVE it.

Oh, one more note on speed of things having the monitor attached:
Speedometer says cpu performance is same with and without screen.  1 bit
mode on the external monitor is 2+ times faster than it is on the internal.
(1.46 accordin to Speedometer)...I think as it works out, the speed on the
internal monitor is about the same in drawing as 4-bit mode on my Lapis
card (like scrolling through a document)...

Again, good luck...let me know what you end up deciding on.
*******

>I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page
>monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in
>getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid?
>What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale
>monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be,
>well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors?


Color works quite well on an SE/30.  I recommend the RasterOps Colorboard
264.  The Apple monitor is the best available, but the most expensive.
*******

>Thanks very much for taking the time to respond to my query. And I'll
>remember not to use 256 point TT fonts too often ;)

Glad to help. By the way, my color SE/30 system performs wonderfully
with stuff like 256-color arcade games, After Dark modules, etc.

One thing you might want to consider, but this is just a general
consideration for anyone thinking of getting a color monitor:
if you're mainly going to be using it for B&W applications like
word processing or whatever, you might want to consider getting
either a monochrome or grey-scale monitor. B&W stuff looks a bit
better on a non-color tube.
*******
THE END
*******